Jump to content
Zep Dude

Thinking Of Dumping Pro Tools

Recommended Posts

Hi, the title says it all. I've been making records in one way or another with PT since the mid nineties and have watched their reliability and stability decline as they heap more and more features that don't deliver as promised. V7 is sluggish and buggy and they are not fixing the bugs as they add more features. So much of my time is now going into dealing with problems, work arounds and even destruction of sessions that the concepts of work flow and creativity are long gone. So I'm looking at other possibilities...

I've read the info in your description and have the following questions about features I currently rely on in PT:

Playlists:

I didn't see any mention of similar concepts in Sequoia. We record 12 channel drum kits, 24 channels of full bands etc and need to be able instantly go to take 2, take 3 etc, then be able to edit between these takes and comp. Equally as important is the ability to create different comps, that we can switch between which all leads to having some sort of underlying playlist scheme.

Groups:

Can multiple tracks be grouped and edited together (12 drum tracks cut, pasted, shifted together with phase coherency etc) and does this also apply to mixing (faders move together etc)

Import session Data:

Any ability to import aspects of another song. If we're mixing an album with similar tracks, once we've set up our drum, bass, vocal tracks those mixer aspects may remain constant for each song so rather than start from a zero'd console import session data allows us to bring in all the channel assigments of sends, plugins, group, buss asignments, reverbs etc. Also If we've been editing across multiple systems we can import just the edited tracks from the laptop into the main song.

Softsynths:

Do you reliably support softsynths in your mixing environment? Pro Tools is very buggy with this and the NI synths are always problematic with RTAS.

Hardware:

Digital IO: I have 24 channels of outboard converters (all AES dsubs). Never liked the 192, lol. What hardware interface would you suggest to interface with them for maximum reliability and the best signal integrity. Sonic quality and rock solid clocking are of utmost importance.

Computer: I need something that can handle 190 tracks without breaking a sweat and function flawlessly in a professional environment. #1 priority is reliability even with large complex projects. The possibilities for configuring a PC seem endless -processor, manufacturer, sound cards, ram, ram manufacturer, and endless possibilities = endless headaches and tech support calls. Exactly why I want to dump PT! To make this simple, what should I get?

Control Surfaces:

I've read you only support the Mackie. At the moment I use a Command 8 but am thinking of moving to larger format control surface. Are you planning on expanding your support in the future?

Thanks for your time. Sequoia looks very tempting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sequoia is amazing and I strongly recommend it - but as I do classical and don't use the facilities you are asking about; I will leave it to others to give the detailed answers.

Hardware interface - I use the RME Fireface, but would get the Prism Orpheus if I had the cash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Playlists:

Groups:

Import session Data:

Softsynths:

Hardware:

Computer:

Control Surfaces:

Thanks for your time. Sequoia looks very tempting.

You would probably be well advised to get hold of Tom sailor at Orange Hill. He knows the program as well as almost anybody and runs seminars and demos.

The plus/minus is that under Samp/Sequoia you can do many things many different ways. I'll just try to equate some of what you describe to what I do in Sequoia... though I must say that my current needs are far less demanding than yours. I'm doing mastering and remixing. By the time I see a project, submixing and comping have been done. Seldom do I see more than 32-40 tracks total per VIP. So I cannot address your total track count needs, other than to say that most of the time NOBODY has 190 tracks running concurently, and most any software can run large numbers of tracks for short durations.

Playlists: I use multiple VIPs (Sequoias' EDL) open all the time, and grab and copy Objects among them. There is also 3 and 4 point editing to consider, plus the Take Manager.

Groups: Yes, multiple tracks can be grouped. But I don't know as to mixing, or even quite what you mean.

Import session Data: Not a part of my world, but I believe so.

Softsynths: Again, not my world. But when Magix was represented by Synthaxe, they also represented NI and Yellow Tools. I'd take that as a hint.

Hardware: My own choice has been RME/Mytek. Lynx is good, too.

Computer: this changes almost daily. You buy one, you takes your chances. Perhaps you want to approach a dedicated DAW computer box shop.... but my own foray down this path a few years ago was a disaster, and in researching it last year, I decided to build my own with the help and suggestions of some hard core Sequoia users.

Control Surfaces: I've had the Mackie since it came out. I really don't use it much... doing much smaller projects, I haven't needed to do so. Looking at your proposed requirement, I'd want something though. There is a lot of power in the Sequoia/Samplitude format, but as you are changing horses in mid-stream, expect some growing pains. In the DAW world, few fearures are even referenced by the same name among applications, few function identically. To a man used to salmon, steak might taste a little strange at first.

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Playlists:

Groups:

Import session Data:

Softsynths:

Hardware:

Computer:

Control Surfaces:

Thanks for your time. Sequoia looks very tempting.

You would probably be well advised to get hold of Tom sailor at Orange Hill. He knows the program as well as almost anybody and runs seminars and demos.

The plus/minus is that under Samp/Sequoia you can do many things many different ways. I'll just try to equate some of what you describe to what I do in Sequoia... though I must say that my current needs are far less demanding than yours. I'm doing mastering and remixing. By the time I see a project, submixing and comping have been done. Seldom do I see more than 32-40 tracks total per VIP. So I cannot address your total track count needs, other than to say that most of the time NOBODY has 190 tracks running concurently, and most any software can run large numbers of tracks for short durations.

Playlists: I use multiple VIPs (Sequoias' EDL) open all the time, and grab and copy Objects among them. There is also 3 and 4 point editing to consider, plus the Take Manager.

Groups: Yes, multiple tracks can be grouped. But I don't know as to mixing, or even quite what you mean.

Import session Data: Not a part of my world, but I believe so.

Softsynths: Again, not my world. But when Magix was represented by Synthaxe, they also represented NI and Yellow Tools. I'd take that as a hint.

Hardware: My own choice has been RME/Mytek. Lynx is good, too.

Computer: this changes almost daily. You buy one, you takes your chances. Perhaps you want to approach a dedicated DAW computer box shop.... but my own foray down this path a few years ago was a disaster, and in researching it last year, I decided to build my own with the help and suggestions of some hard core Sequoia users.

Control Surfaces: I've had the Mackie since it came out. I really don't use it much... doing much smaller projects, I haven't needed to do so. Looking at your proposed requirement, I'd want something though. There is a lot of power in the Sequoia/Samplitude format, but as you are changing horses in mid-stream, expect some growing pains. In the DAW world, few fearures are even referenced by the same name among applications, few function identically. To a man used to salmon, steak might taste a little strange at first.

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Playlists:

I didn't see any mention of similar concepts in Sequoia. We record 12 channel drum kits, 24 channels of full bands etc and need to be able instantly go to take 2, take 3 etc, then be able to edit between these takes and comp. Equally as important is the ability to create different comps, that we can switch between which all leads to having some sort of underlying playlist scheme.

This is a request currently running in another thread. Currently there are no direct playlists as some people are used to in PT, but there IS the ability to simply load a template project and be ready to go. You can open up multiple VIP projects and edit between them. I've done this with no real issues other than staying organized :lol:. It's not directly transparent as playlists would be, but it DOES work very elegantly.

Groups:

Can multiple tracks be grouped and edited together (12 drum tracks cut, pasted, shifted together with phase coherency etc) and does this also apply to mixing (faders move together etc).

Yes, the whole power of Sampliquoia is the object editing, so you can grab grouped objects in many permutations (neighboring tracks, distinct tracks, distinct objects, etc.) and cut/splice them as you desire. If automation is applied to the tracks or objects, then the faders (or whatever) SHOULD migrate or copy over accordingly.

Import session Data:

Any ability to import aspects of another song. If we're mixing an album with similar tracks, once we've set up our drum, bass, vocal tracks those mixer aspects may remain constant for each song so rather than start from a zero'd console import session data allows us to bring in all the channel assigments of sends, plugins, group, buss asignments, reverbs etc. Also If we've been editing across multiple systems we can import just the edited tracks from the laptop into the main song.

Yes, you can save a whole VIP project as a 'session' - in essence a starter template for future projects. I have several starter projects that I've built over time with drums, guitar, bass, etc. all mapped and ready to go. Individual tracks can be saved as a template as well as mixer setups.

Softsynths:

Do you reliably support softsynths in your mixing environment? Pro Tools is very buggy with this and the NI synths are always problematic with RTAS.

Heck yeah. I use Atmosphere, and am now toying with Independence. I also use multichannel VST's such as dfhSuperior, which can be routed out and/or recorded to separate tracks. MIDI synth tracks can be frozen (essentially turned into audio) with the touch of a hotkey.

Hardware:

Digital IO: I have 24 channels of outboard converters (all AES dsubs). Never liked the 192, lol. What hardware interface would you suggest to interface with them for maximum reliability and the best signal integrity. Sonic quality and rock solid clocking are of utmost importance.

Sampliquoia seems optimized for RME hardware IMO/IME. I use an older Multiface I with my laptop. I am also having much success with Sonic Core (formerly Creamware) DSP cards. Rock solid clock sync with the RME's especially.

Computer: I need something that can handle 190 tracks without breaking a sweat and function flawlessly in a professional environment. #1 priority is reliability even with large complex projects. The possibilities for configuring a PC seem endless -processor, manufacturer, sound cards, ram, ram manufacturer, and endless possibilities = endless headaches and tech support calls. Exactly why I want to dump PT! To make this simple, what should I get?.

I suggest going for dual core and lots of RAM. Highly optimized PC with all the background crap turned off. I personally avoid overclocking. I don't have an exact list of my latest desktop components, but I'm getting 50+ stereo tracks with tons of plugins, automation, etc. with no issues (scared the crap out of me to be honest). Not sure about your 190 tracks, but with a dedicated system it's a definite possibility. I recommend getting a configured system built by folks that know Samplitude. There is a list somewhere in the forum that I (or someone) can track down.

Control Surfaces:

I've read you only support the Mackie. At the moment I use a Command 8 but am thinking of moving to larger format control surface. Are you planning on expanding your support in the future?

HUI, and some other dedicated protocols are coming along. I'm currently integrating a new Yamaha 01V96V2 and am so far pleased with the results. I personally don't have a lot of experience with controllers, since I got so used to doing everything inside Samplitude :lol:.

Hope this helps. Sequoia is helping guys win grammy's, so it's a definite contender ;)

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome Zep Dude,

You can do most to all of what you require from your daw. Play list ( lots of stuff is handled in the manager window) you have a take composer, and with object based editing a lot of features in other daws are kinda akward to implement as components of your project are based off the object level. This includes fades, edits, effects, grouping.

Most users will associate the track itself..the whole thing as the object, not in Sequoia, each object has its own controls seperate from the track controls...most daws do this yes, but NOT with the ease of Sequoia. No where near it.

You can check out kraznets videos on samplitude / sequoia and check out videos of samplitude at youtube to see a small amount of stuff it does.

Heck you can convert your midi vst into audio on the fly..no bounce to file anywhere in sight. You can record in an aux bus, just lots of things that really make it unique.

And we are all here to help. I myself am a former PT / Cubase / Logic / MPC user.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive been a user of samp since it was at 5.1 and owned by sek'd. also been a protools tdm user since mix + and now HD3 accell.

If u r looking for samp to give u what protools gives u, u gonna be disappointed. Its a totally different way of working. When u get to the midi and softsynth stuff, samp cant hang. midi still not up to par in samp. pt a little more simplier. But samp sounds great and object editor is it. and u can burn from within.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ive been a user of samp since it was at 5.1 and owned by sek'd. also been a protools tdm user since mix + and now HD3 accell.

If u r looking for samp to give u what protools gives u, u gonna be disappointed. Its a totally different way of working. When u get to the midi and softsynth stuff, samp cant hang. midi still not up to par in samp. pt a little more simplier. But samp sounds great and object editor is it. and u can burn from within.

Thanks so much everyone. I appreciate all the responses so far! It sounds like the people using Sequoia are pretty happy with it.

I'll have to check out the Youtube videos and see if there's a demo available. I have a Dell laptop I could use to just check it out. At this point I'm interested in experiencing the workflow for myself.

I have two more questions:

What are the down sides (features you feel are missing, bugs, problems you wish were fixed)?

Regarding Sequoia's midi -what do you think of the implementation and workflow? I get the impression from upscaps that this is not the strong point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Zep,

here you find the demo: http://www.samplitude.de/dltrials/Samplitu..._pro_demo_E.exe

Regarding Sequoia's midi -what do you think of the implementation and workflow? I get the impression from upscaps that this is not the strong point.

MIDI has been upped dramatically over V8,9 and 10. No comparison to before V7. It is supposedly a little behind still compared with Logic and Sonar, but in comparison to ProTools, that has itself an even shorter history than Samplitude when it comes to MIDI, I don't know if you really will be dissapointed.

Cheers,

Sebastian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Zep,

here you find the demo: http://www.samplitude.de/dltrials/Samplitu..._pro_demo_E.exe

Regarding Sequoia's midi -what do you think of the implementation and workflow? I get the impression from upscaps that this is not the strong point.

MIDI has been upped dramatically over V8,9 and 10. No comparison to before V7. It is supposedly a little behind still compared with Logic and Sonar, but in comparison to ProTools, that has itself an even shorter history than Samplitude when it comes to MIDI, I don't know if you really will be dissapointed.

Cheers,

Sebastian

I'm a moderately deep MIDI user nowadays, and am totally happy with Samplitude's MIDI features. Definitely mature and competitive IMO.

Samp's history has always been audio quality, so that's where it excels over the other hosts that MAY be stronger in the MIDI department.

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Swansong..er.. i mean Zepdude,

Ultimately , the midi dept. in Samp is totally there , IMO . I`m doing midi all day long in it and i know its strength and weaknesses . You might have to alter your workflow slightly to get what you want.. but its basically all there.

VSTi`s and routing work very well in Samp .

Best , Rich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Swansong..er.. i mean Zepdude,

Ultimately , the midi dept. in Samp is totally there , IMO . I`m doing midi all day long in it and i know its strength and weaknesses . You might have to alter your workflow slightly to get what you want.. but its basically all there.

VSTi`s and routing work very well in Samp .

Best , Rich

It sounds like I could cover a good deal of ground with Sequoia and then maybe just use something like Ableton if I need to do loopy stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Swansong..er.. i mean Zepdude,

Ultimately , the midi dept. in Samp is totally there , IMO . I`m doing midi all day long in it and i know its strength and weaknesses . You might have to alter your workflow slightly to get what you want.. but its basically all there.

VSTi`s and routing work very well in Samp .

Best , Rich

It sounds like I could cover a good deal of ground with Sequoia and then maybe just use something like Ableton if I need to do loopy stuff.

Remotely distinct paradigms and approach between Samp. and Live. In Samplitude you can slap down enless loops in a track by hitting ctrl-D, or by other means. Live is different.

I find Samplitude much more transparent this way, but then the approach is very different.

I've mixed a friends composition done in Live in Samplitude, so this approach works great also.

Greg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Swansong..er.. i mean Zepdude,

Ultimately , the midi dept. in Samp is totally there , IMO . I`m doing midi all day long in it and i know its strength and weaknesses . You might have to alter your workflow slightly to get what you want.. but its basically all there.

VSTi`s and routing work very well in Samp .

Best , Rich

It sounds like I could cover a good deal of ground with Sequoia and then maybe just use something like Ableton if I need to do loopy stuff.

Yea totally, thats what i did. Rewire Live into Samp. But eventually , i just figured out how to do the loopy stuff in Samp and i rarely bother with Ableton anymore... :P Live still kills for loopy/time streaching stuff though.. just sucks for serious mixing... Good luck on your desicion Zepdude.

~ Got my flower , ive got my power ~ ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×