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Eirik Grønner

A Challenge For Sascha ? :-)

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I wish for a smarter gate, tailored towards drums with a delayed filter (at least lopass - but preferrably bandpass),

- to have a bright attack with toms & snares AND retain tails, but controlling the HH/cym bleed from the "next hit" in them. :)

The big challenge with gated drums, is of course that we sacrifice tails/sustain - because of unwanted bleed in them.

(or should I say - the bleed becomes ugly as the processing on target signal does not fit the bleed)

And when a compressed & eq'ed signal just stops, it usually creates a hole, or unatural-ness in the set, that is undesireable in 95% of the cases...

BUT - thing is, when tails are cut above, say 3k, the bleed doesnt matter anymore in most cases. Cymbals dont "jump" or sound harsh cause of toms-eq when the tail are filtered like this. And the tail still sounds natural in context.

So.. could Sascha/Samdev could make a lookahead drumgate with a user defined delayed filter to keep "ugly" bleed from tails?

As described further down in this thread - A gate with 3 (or at least 2) bands would handle this issue too!.

I doubt if fixing the existing multiband dynamics (its useless with drums unfortunately) would be enough because its too

heavy on resources (need at least 5 instances for a drumset).

Maybe this is more in the "bread & butter-cathegory", but man, it would be SUCH a timesaver and help in getting drumtakes to sound punchy but "natural"!

Best

Eirik

Edited by Eirik Grønner

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drumgate with a user defined delayed filter to loose "ugly" bleed from tails.

Of course, the delay-time until the lopassfilter kicks in would also have to be user adjustable (maybe both as note-value and milliseconds)

I usually prefer using all of my "own" recorded drums. Once in a while I add to snares with drumagog, but mostly not.

While working with "played-sounding" rock/pop productions, I always try to keep the tone and a good degree of "naturalness" to the drumset, but to get enough edge and "snap", I have to use gating a lot.

The alternative would be, of course, to edit every single hit, wich is just too time-consuming in most situations. I gate one or more copies of the track, always keeping one "natural" for ghost notes & "natural bleed". Sometimes snares end up with 4 tracks (two gated versions plus natural overmic & undermic)

Only way around the "holes" created by gating, is meticiously tweaking of all the track-copies to find a terror balance, or go in and edit & eq(lopass) the tail/ring/sustain of every hit. (I usually end up doing that with toms)..

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i don't know if i understand your description right, but i would try to use a dynamic equalizer for that.

it would be for sure a timesaver to have timeable cut-filters inside a gate, to handle all kinds of sustain- and resonance-effects.

mathias

edit: have you ever tried to achieve this with the samplitude multibanddynamics, with two bands, crossover around 3khz and compressing the low band with the needed attack and release?

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i don't know if i understand your description right, but i would try to use a dynamic equalizer for that.

Thanks, but I doubt that would work very well - since the unwanted bleed after the initial hit/first attack is not very much dynamically different to the tail I want to keep. The trick would be to have a delay until a fixed filter kicks in.

I have tried with mulitband dynamics, with some results (its already part of my "terror-balance" scheme) but its nowhere near enough alone, and also resource hungry - unlike what I believe such a gate would be. (besides Samp needs a "drumgate" IMO. Currently there's no usable gating for drum/percussive sounds with Samp's own tools)

edit

edit: have you ever tried to achieve this with the samplitude multibanddynamics, with two bands, crossover around 3khz and compressing the low band with the needed attack and release?

If this was a working gate (for drums) it would probably work. (you come close to the mark with your thinking here - see below.)

I just didnt think of describing my wish as a multband-gate, as it exists in Samp- but is not working currently with drums/percussive sounds cause of clicks and artefacts and lost transients.

Edited by Eirik Grønner

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There is a plug called Gatelope that seems to be interesting. It also costs about 20 bucks. Unfortunately it is AU only and the guy that coded it seems so far to be having no interest in learning how to code vst plugins. A brief description of the plug is here:

Chris has even been gracious enough to design plugins on custom spec, provided the idea has been

interesting enough.

The Gatelope is essentially the result of such a project.

I came to Chris some time ago with an idea for a gate that would not only attenuate below-threshold signal,

but also allow you to shape the frequency response of its decay.

Typical mix case: The really cool tom fill that ends with a cymbal crash.

With a regular gate, you have a choice of allowing a wash of indescribably ugly, white-noise bullshit to be

included as a free giveaway with your nice, well-tuned tom decay......

.....or, you can set the release time to catch the cymbal leakage, essentially turning a perfectly good tom

into a sound resembling the four-gallon water cooler in Slipperman's studio lobby being struck hard with a

whiffle ball bat.

With the Gatelope, you can set high- and low end decay separately, allowing you to retain as much of the

low end tom tone as you like.

Alternatively, you can allow the high end to ring while tightening up the low end decay, which may be very

useful on for example a snare.

How does that one sound as an idea? And I very much trust the opinion of the AE that wrote this particular post.

Methinks having such a thing with a native sidechain possiblility would be huge - not only for toms and such for straightforward usage but imagine using this to expanding drum room mics keyed off snare, kick and toms, controlling the cymbal leakage and then crushing it to death afterwards with an AM-Track...

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There is a plug called Gatelope that seems to be interesting. It also costs about 20 bucks. Unfortunately it is AU only and the guy that coded it seems so far to be having no interest in learning how to code vst plugins. A brief description of the plug is here:
Chris has even been gracious enough to design plugins on custom spec, provided the idea has been

interesting enough.

The Gatelope is essentially the result of such a project.

I came to Chris some time ago with an idea for a gate that would not only attenuate below-threshold signal,

but also allow you to shape the frequency response of its decay.

Typical mix case: The really cool tom fill that ends with a cymbal crash.

With a regular gate, you have a choice of allowing a wash of indescribably ugly, white-noise bullshit to be

included as a free giveaway with your nice, well-tuned tom decay......

.....or, you can set the release time to catch the cymbal leakage, essentially turning a perfectly good tom

into a sound resembling the four-gallon water cooler in Slipperman's studio lobby being struck hard with a

whiffle ball bat.

With the Gatelope, you can set high- and low end decay separately, allowing you to retain as much of the

low end tom tone as you like.

Alternatively, you can allow the high end to ring while tightening up the low end decay, which may be very

useful on for example a snare.

How does that one sound as an idea? And I very much trust the opinion of the AE that wrote this particular post.

Methinks having such a thing with a native sidechain possiblility would be huge - not only for toms and such for straightforward usage but imagine using this to expanding drum room mics keyed off snare, kick and toms, controlling the cymbal leakage and then crushing it to death afterwards with an AM-Track...

Intersting Holm! - yes I would think others have mused on this too - Its such an "obvious" thing when working a lot with

real drums and gating(copies of) them to get enough punch & snap.

This description fits my needs well. A bandsplit gate with individual hold&release times would do it.

But then make it 3 bands! - So we can clean up low rumble as well as hi-(cymbal) bleed.

IF samps multiband dynamics/gate would have been useful for drums at all, we would kinda have it already... ;)

Although in its current form (even if "fixed"to work with drums) I guess it will be much too heavy on resources ..

(I would easily need 5 of them for one drumset alone in a mix...)

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Like said before, you can do that with a dynamic EQ.

Simple use the attack time for your delaytime.

But your Idea is very good and helpful.

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Like said before, you can do that with a dynamic EQ.

Simple use the attack time for your delaytime.

But your Idea is very good and helpful.

I still doubt it, but will try - Could you please mention a plug that will work that way ?

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TC Powercore, Dynamic EQ.

But i think for longer rolls your idea is much better.

The delay should be triggered with the release of the gate.

No hit will be filtered this way.

Hey Sascha, is this special enough for you? :);)

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TC Powercore, Dynamic EQ.

Thanks - unfortunately I dont have, or plan to have, a powercore..

(do you know of any native dynamic eq's that would behave like this one ?)

But i think for longer rolls your idea is much better.

The delay should be triggered with the release of the gate.

No hit will be filtered this way.

Yes, I think so too :blink: , just a quick double hit could cause erroneous filtering with dynamic eq too I would think.

Hey Sascha, is this special enough for you? ;);)

Seems Sascha is on a holiday or something - havent seen sign of him on these forums for many weeks(months?)

br

Eirik

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Hey Sascha, is this special enough for you? ;):blink:

Seems Sascha is on a holiday or something - havent seen sign of him on these forums for many weeks(months?)

I'm watching the forum daily, at least when I'm at work. Indeed, I was on vacation, 3 weeks ago. Currently, I'm involved into some side projects here that keep me from doing Sam plugins business as usual (cool stuff nonetheless). I'll think about these ideas as soon as time allows.

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Had some time to think about this yet? ;-)

There really exist no other tool on this planet that can do this - even gatelope (only Mac!) is very simplified compared to what you could do here Sascha - :-D

I'd pay you money under the table to start, and THEN buy it when it was done...

Cant get the old trusted but time-consuming to work with - ultrafunk-gate to work on Win7..

Will try out reagate while I wait for Sascha's miracle..

Best

Eirik

Hey Sascha, is this special enough for you? ;):unsure:

Seems Sascha is on a holiday or something - havent seen sign of him on these forums for many weeks(months?)

I'm watching the forum daily, at least when I'm at work. Indeed, I was on vacation, 3 weeks ago. Currently, I'm involved into some side projects here that keep me from doing Sam plugins business as usual (cool stuff nonetheless). I'll think about these ideas as soon as time allows.

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Had some time to think about this yet? ;-)

There really exist no other tool on this planet that can do this - even gatelope (only Mac!) is very simplified compared to what you could do here Sascha - :-D

I'd pay you money under the table to start, and THEN buy it when it was done...

Cant get the old trusted but time-consuming to work with - ultrafunk-gate to work on Win7..

Will try out reagate while I wait for Sascha's miracle..

Hey Sascha, is this special enough for you? ;):unsure:

Seems Sascha is on a holiday or something - havent seen sign of him on these forums for many weeks(months?)

I'm watching the forum daily, at least when I'm at work. Indeed, I was on vacation, 3 weeks ago. Currently, I'm involved into some side projects here that keep me from doing Sam plugins business as usual (cool stuff nonetheless). I'll think about these ideas as soon as time allows.

Bump ;-)

a fools hope, but still...

(reagate works ok - but of course still FAR from what "defilgate" could do for acoustic recordings.. )

BR

Eirik

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I think the new eFX gate should cover most of the needs. Check it out.

That sounds promising! - I take it thats a v12 / pro-x feature (?) - couldnt find it in my v11.2.1

best

Eirik

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The title of the topic? ;-)

Exactly! ;-)

Guess I have to buy time with some freelance coder to have my monster created :-) - it seems hard to get across what this could do for saving time with "modern" mixing of acoustic drums..

shbz

Eirik

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It's a gate, man, what do you expect?

"More than this"? :P

I wonder if Eiriks idea could be handy in a post prod./dialogue situation as well?

There is a constant struggle to isolate different aspects and sources from location recordings

Ola

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