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Is Feedback Routing Possible?

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Hi folks!

The titles pretty much say it all. Though it's available in Pro Tools and Reaper, I think it's probably unlikely that Samp 10 offers feedback routing -- I've not been able to find it, if so -- but I thought I'd ask anyway, with a clear statement of my goal: Degenerative delays.

It's really important to me that I have a way to insert the effect of my choice on feedback returns, so that with each progressive repeat, the sound is progressively altered. For me, this makes the delays vastly more effective, thus requiring less overall space in the mix, if this degradation or change is happening.

So the question is this: Is there a way to do this in Samp 10 Pro, or must I jump over to Reaper or PT for my ITB delays?

Thanks for your help!

Cheers.

:angry:

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For the sake of our customer's hearing, we do not allow feeback routing. If Reaper does... well, I suppose it's in the app's name :angry:

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For the sake of our customer's hearing, we do not allow feeback routing. If Reaper does... well, I suppose it's in the app's name :angry:

Actually, I prefer to be treated like an adult by companies that makes my audio gear. Not like a child who doesn't understand the consequences of routing (though I appreciate that your remark was humorous).

Clearly, this is what the Pro Tools and Reaper folks do, at least in this case. Does Digidesign "protect" their customers' hearing? Does API or SSL prevent feedback routing in their desks to protect their customers' hearing? Um, no, rather, all of them create professional gear for professionals who, you know, have a clue what they're doing. They design for flexibility. Options. Creativity. For adults.

For those who are careless, Reaper has an optional auto-shutoff that will mute the master buss if a certain decibel level is approached.

If you are the Sascha that programmed the bundled plugins, then you have my deep appreciation and respect. They're quite good.

Though it's a wee bit disquieting that the designer of a delay plugin does not seem to recognize the value of this technique, common on physical mixing boards, and taken advantage of so frequently simply because the result is so obviously head and shoulders above mirror echoes that simply reduce in amplitude.

Cheers.

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Yes, consider my above post as mostly humourous. Maybe I failed miserably.

Of course I do 'recognize' that. Back in my analog days (being an FOH guy) I was doing just the same on various occasions. I know it can be a creative way, no doubt. Thing is, with analog, you have the internal voltage supply and the OP amps limiting the amount of signal level, thereby feedback. In the digital world, the only limit is the 80bit floating point range (more than 3000dB theoretically). Strange things can happen; denormals, overflow, underflow, with the 'NaN' state being the worst.

If I'm not mistaken, we already have an internal limit here. Still, this isn't comparable to analog, of course.

But I don't think level excursions are the main issue here.

Apart from the fact that it is up to others here to decide that (I'm not involved into the core development), we're currently working on the entire routing scheme. Before V11, we got a left-to-right arrangement of tracks and busses, that we now extent to both sides, as far as our internal schemes allow. But afaik, there's still no feedback structure possible.

I guess one reason is our hybrid engine, which, in contrast to most other DAWs, allows for a mixed operation of low- and high-latency track/bus arrangement. Another one may be threading.

Perhaps Volker as the lead dev can clarify here further.

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There's a 3rd party 'dirty' analogish delay line that can do this (can't remember the name), but Sascha's right, that if you even emulate deteriorating delay, that I think the digital realm is too clean for this.

What Reaper does is use an aux send to trick the app. into routing back into the host channel. I think this could be done very easily in Samplitude. I'll have to try it :angry:

Greg

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Thank you both for the interesting replies!

My apologies if I seemed a little cranky. I suppose I'm carrying irritation from my years with Cubase and their attitude toward their customers, which is rather unfair.

The software side of the subject has interesting angles I hadn't considered. Thank you for illuminating it, Sascha, that was an in-depth reply and I appreciate it. And thanks Greg, I thought I knew most of the delay plugins, but perhaps a good one has escaped my notice. If it turns out it's possible to "trick" Samp this way, I'm going to feel extra silly, but that would be great news.

Cheers to all.

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delay plugins

Don't know if this will be any good for you, Mr Planet.

http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/product.php?pid=AD006

I have purchased two of Audio Damage's products recently and they do the job. No demos but they give a refund if you don't like them.

Thanks, Mudflat! Yes that's a particularly nice company, most of their stuff is quite ace, IMHO, but alas, though that's a great delay, and does offer distortion, it doesn't do quite the same thing. And unlike a feedback setup that you've rigged yourself, you can't tailor the kind of distortion (or insert some other kind of effect altogether). That plug's still great for a lot of situations though.

Delays that morph over time have a strange, disproportionate fascination to them, at least to my ears, and they just sound more like a record to me. For some weird reason (actually weird too-specific reasons related to the way the brain evolved and the reasons it pays attention to particular sounds in the environment, but WAY too geeky for here) it's just much more noticeable than a static delay, it retains interest longer, just makes the mix seem more alive.

Thanks for the tip, though; I'm interested to try anyone's suggestions.

Cheers and thanks again.

:angry:

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I can exactly relate to what you're saying. I did some stuff back in the 90s where I did mixdowns, using an A&H Saber desk, and routed all kinds of stuff back & forth through it. It becomes fun when you build up delay clusters (for me at that time: Ensoniq DP/4) and send that to various auxes, through stomps, guitar stuff, and feed it back upon itself. (I've lately rediscovered old DATs with 30mins of drones/athmos, using only an LXP-1, and old MidiVerb, the desk and internal feedback. Really weird.)

Frankly, I can't think of any gear that does that as good only in the digital realm. But I would try out this one:

- put the delay (or whatever) on a bus (aux or submix) and send the signal to a spare output on your audio device

- do some external processing, whatever you like that beefs things up

- route the audio back into the sequencer

Sam/Sequoia have a dedicated 'external hardware' worflow for these kinds of things. Latency is automatically adjusted (as long as the driver reports correct times).

It doesn't interest the software what and how you patch things up externally, so there's plenty of freedom. You could also apply that multiple times, as much as you've got physical ins & outs.

Of course this workflow is limited to already recorded audio, it won't work with live inputs (you'd have the in + out latency, certainly)

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Ensoniq DP/4

Lol. I had an Ensoniq Mirage. You had to learn MARTIAN to interface with your sampler. :)

That's a great idea, Sascha. It should have occurred to me. I haven't looked into the external hardware capacities of Samp yet, but I will today.

Much still to learn about Samplitude.

Thank you and cheers!

:angry:

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