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irvin

OT: very impressed with Reaper

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Continuing with my cheating tradition (but still loyal to Samplitude), I'm giving Reaper a try. It has been a very pleasant surprise: Reaper just works out-of-the-box. Very small and ultra-quick installation and a basic set of features that covers everything the typical recording environment might need.

Required about 2 hours to fully customize it to fit my way of working. The default interface is not to my taste, so i downloaded and installed a couple of free ones (protools and imperial) and they give the program a much better and professional look, on a par with Samplitude).

No crashes, nothing out of the ordinary - it just works. That is impressive, at least to me.

I particularly like the lack of superfluous stuff, like x-number of GB of samples and generally useless crap that most software forces users to install these days as "filler (not killer) features". Recognized my plugins folder without trouble.

A great feature (sadly missing in Samplitude) is the way it handles elastic audio (or audio snap for Reason/studio One users). Very simple and elegant: detect your transients and move (snap) them to the grid as needed, without slicing the object (but you can slice it if you want).

User manual is great, written in "coherent english". Price is great too, at $60 - but I have not bought a license yet. Still evaluating, but looks like a total keeper...

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Required about 2 hours to fully customize it to fit my way of working. The default interface is not to my taste, so i downloaded and installed a couple of free ones (protools and imperial) and they give the program a much better and professional look, on a par with Samplitude).

If there were a Samplitude interface I'd download it in a split second. I'm so entrenched in the Sampliface, especially the Universal Mousemode, that at this point it would be difficult to switch. Or even to cheat. wink.png

Walt

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OK and how about the sound.

Have you tried any song yet with multi tracks?

That will be the key thing.

Thanks and let us know.

dan

Sound seems on a par with Samplitude - but have not tested enough. A little nag: Reaper does not come with an MP3 encoder, so the Lame .dll needs to be downloaded and placed in the Reaper folder. Not a biggie, but worth mentioning.

So far, it has been very good, but then again, i do mostly acoustic recording (latin music) so my needs are relatively simple: capture a good, clean signal and mix.

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I was never interested enough to be inticed by it

Reason and Samplitude has everything I need

Good point. I started exploring other options because Samplitude does not have any sort of decent "audio snap" feature - something that works very well in other applications like Pro Tools, Reason, etc. (i'm a long-term Reason user and left it at v7.0 because rack extensions are not a very good value - at least to me).

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When I did a sound shoot out a year ago with reaper, it sounded bad. Don't waste your time...

Try saying that on Gearslutz and you will get a 100 page thread lol :)

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I was never interested enough to be inticed by it

Reason and Samplitude has everything I need

Good point. I started exploring other options because Samplitude does not have any sort of decent "audio snap" feature - something that works very well in other applications like Pro Tools, Reason, etc. (i'm a long-term Reason user and left it at v7.0 because rack extensions are not a very good value - at least to me).

Audio Snap or warping or bending is a long requested feature for Samplitude. I'm using Studio One for that at the moment.

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When I did a sound shoot out a year ago with reaper, it sounded bad. Don't waste your time...

How did you determine that, Tim?

Mine is an honest question (too old to be a fanboy either way, lol). I'm asking because it's one of those things very hard to explain or determine. For example: to this day, I'm convinced Samplitude sounds much better than Reason (the latter one having a shrill, "midrangy" quality to it), but sometimes i think it might just be the interface generating a certain feel of visual satisfaction that alters our perception of sound. I really don't know...

Wouldn't a simple test determine that? Could we just get a sound file, import it into Samplitude, export it as a wave file. do the same with Reaper and then import the two files into either program, switch the phase and see if they cancel each other out? Still, no proof one sounds better than the other, but at least we would detect a difference, I think.

Final question, Tim: did you write about it somewhere?

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Digital recording shouldn't "sound" like anything other than the source. What goes in should come out and null perfectly.

What I think does contribute to a DAW's "sound" is how audio elements are mixed, processed and rendered. I don't know of any way to objectively test that.

Walt

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When I did a sound shoot out a year ago with reaper, it sounded bad. Don't waste your time...

Wouldn't a simple test determine that? Could we just get a sound file, import it into Samplitude, export it as a wave file. do the same with Reaper and then import the two files into either program, switch the phase and see if they cancel each other out? Still, no proof one sounds better than the other, but at least we would detect a difference, I think.

Simple answer: no.

You need to compare what happens when you track/mix, everything else is plain bullshitting (and we don't need the millionst fanboy discussion lead like this, do we?), since importing and exporting an audio file is not what we are using a DAW for, right? I.e. panning, moving faders, volume adjusting, bussing, aux sending/returning, befor even mentioning plugin handling, SR, dithering (while this most likely has happened already while doing the first four steps), this is where sound is actually 'happening', everything else will most likely null.

For your interest, I did mix comparisions from time to time with Reaper/Samplitude, and it sounded disgusting to my ears, at least with quite dense material, or when pushing things far. For what I do, a waste of time. I gave up on it.

And don't get me wrong, I do work with other stuff like Live (since beta 1, and it still sounds shitty), to achieve things I can't do like within Live elsewhere, also SAWStudio has its place here for special purposes. For me it all boils down to working processes, and most likely I always end in Samplitude, be it for whole mixes, refining or mastering - BECAUSE of the way it sounds.

To become a little elaborate on the the latter: When I compare SAWStudio and Samplitude it is again how I achieve the process, SAWStudio is using integers, where Samplitude is using floating point, like almost all other DAWs, and it is here where, to my taste, I can get a more solid bass foundation in SAWStudio, mix faster, but I have very carefully to watch my gain staging.

You might want to google about the differences between integer and floating point programming (and be prepared to read a lot befor you get a little), one point being, while it is faster to achieve your programming goals using floating point, this is also prone to some problematic positioning decisions (because you actually don't need to decide where to put a bit) which can be your path to muddy waters. But in the end it depends on many more decisions, and apparently the devs in Dresden do a very fine job here, most of the time. And still this all stays in the realm of subjectivnes, conditioning and such. Don't trust your ears - be honest with them (i.e. know when you are tired, sound is permutating etc) that's more important.

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When I did a sound shoot out a year ago with reaper, it sounded bad. Don't waste your time...

Try saying that on Gearslutz and you will get a 100 page thread lol smile.png

Try saying that on your typical "home rec" audio forum....and you will get a 1000 page thread!!! biggrin.png

Reaper is THE "home rec" DAW app these days......mainly 'cuz it's very cheap.

Those folks will never accept that it sounds bad..... wink.png

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When I did a sound shoot out a year ago with reaper, it sounded bad. Don't waste your time...

Wouldn't a simple test determine that? Could we just get a sound file, import it into Samplitude, export it as a wave file. do the same with Reaper and then import the two files into either program, switch the phase and see if they cancel each other out? Still, no proof one sounds better than the other, but at least we would detect a difference, I think.

Simple answer: no.

You need to compare what happens when you track/mix, everything else is plain bullshitting (and we don't need the millionst fanboy discussion lead like this, do we?), since importing and exporting an audio file is not what we are using a DAW for, right? I.e. panning, moving faders, volume adjusting, bussing, aux sending/returning, befor even mentioning plugin handling, SR, dithering (while this most likely has happened already while doing the first four steps), this is where sound is actually 'happening', everything else will most likely null.

For your interest, I did mix comparisions from time to time with Reaper/Samplitude, and it sounded disgusting to my ears, at least with quite dense material, or when pushing things far. For what I do, a waste of time. I gave up on it.

And don't get me wrong, I do work with other stuff like Live (since beta 1, and it still sounds shitty), to achieve things I can't do like within Live elsewhere, also SAWStudio has its place here for special purposes. For me it all boils down to working processes, and most likely I always end in Samplitude, be it for whole mixes, refining or mastering - BECAUSE of the way it sounds.

To become a little elaborate on the the latter: When I compare SAWStudio and Samplitude it is again how I achieve the process, SAWStudio is using integers, where Samplitude is using floating point, like almost all other DAWs, and it is here where, to my taste, I can get a more solid bass foundation in SAWStudio, mix faster, but I have very carefully to watch my gain staging.

You might want to google about the differences between integer and floating point programming (and be prepared to read a lot befor you get a little), one point being, while it is faster to achieve your programming goals using floating point, this is also prone to some problematic positioning decisions (because you actually don't need to decide where to put a bit) which can be your path to muddy waters. But in the end it depends on many more decisions, and apparently the devs in Dresden do a very fine job here, most of the time. And still this all stays in the realm of subjectivnes, conditioning and such. Don't trust your ears - be honest with them (i.e. know when you are tired, sound is permutating etc) that's more important.

You do realize, Boris, that in the end, you have not offered any proof that any DAW sounds better than other. For the simple reason that there is no objective way to determine what constitutes "better" - is it how close it stays to the original? Or is it how much it transforms the sound? A mix of all factors?

I don't think anyone can determine that - and that's the reason the real experts (the guys actually writing these programs) can't claim sonic superiority for their products.

I personally feel that the difference, if it does exist, is far less meaningful that the actual work flow, ease of learning, features, etc. In that vein, Reaper has been a very pleasant surprise (it has per-object editing and processing very similar to Samplitude's, for example).

That said, I would like to clarify that I'm not claiming Reaper sounds better or is better than Samplitude - I don't know that or care about that. My post is just a little bit of opinion directed at those who would like to explore options for whatever reasons (in my case because the audio snap feature is important). Hopefully, someone will find it valuable or interesting...

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Here ya go. test it for yourself.

http://support2.magix.net/boards/samplitude//index.php?showtopic=28438&p=214524

and see the second test http://support2.magix.net/boards/samplitude//index.php?showtopic=28438&p=214553

The audio clips are long gone, but do it for yourself.

Thanks, Tim. Read the threads briefly, but it's of little use because: as you admitted to Sebastien, your test was mostly about CPU consumption and when you reached some conclusion about your test, it was described in the usual vague terms "warmer", "more cohesive", etc. Far from what anyone would call objective or conclusive. In the end, i don't think anyone can determine with certainty whether Samplitude sounds better than Prottols or Reaper sound better than Reason or Logic.

To me ( and I may be in a small minority), they ALL sound great and do an adequate job for any capable engineer/mixer. The real difference is in features and workflow.

In any case, thanks pointing me to those threads and for taking the time to attempt to solve the never-ending debate of what/who sounds "better".

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When I did a sound shoot out a year ago with reaper, it sounded bad. Don't waste your time...

Try saying that on Gearslutz and you will get a 100 page thread lol :)

Try saying that on your typical "home rec" audio forum....and you will get a 1000 page thread!!! :D

Reaper is THE "home rec" DAW app these days......mainly 'cuz it's very cheap.

Those folks will never accept that it sounds bad..... ;)

I think you might be underestimating Reaper by a lot. after all, if the difference in sound quality were as obvious as some people here claim, most of those guys would just download the widely available pirated latest version of Samplitude (as cheap as Reaper). Price is *definitely not* the reason a lot of people prefer Reaper (and no, I'm not a fanboy and I don't think reaper is any better than Samplitude).

A "well-dressed" (I'm using the proTools skin!) Reaper has been a very pleasant surprise for me. Give it a shot with an open mind, if you are curious. I was skeptical at first, but now I'm getting to like it....

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i lurked with reaper for a long time as my dissatisfaction with magix (more than samplitude) has grown. after spending somethinig like three years watching, testing, and now using it, i can say that i'm extremely impressed and have begun to use it primarily.

my main observation about reaper is that it is somewhat linux-like. while it has little or nothing to do with open-source or linux, the manner of working with it is very much enhanced if you know something about these things. if you spend a couple of hours setting it up and conforming it to your workflow, i can pretty m,uch guarantee you that you've barely scratched the surface.

i'm currently working with a surround project and am working with and refining a template project for such use. the main thing i find in this process is that it is essential to dig into and understand reaper customization. after spending a lot of time working with samplitude while i tailored reaper, i have been able to, more or less, match my samplitude workflow within reaper. and that, to me, is what reaper is all about: customization. it provides many tools, not least of which is a vibrant and supportive forum (which reminds me a lot of the samp forum from the sekd days), with which to enhance a user's workflow. these include 'extensions' and scripting. reaper supports user created scripts and has a HUGE third(ish) party extension library that adds vast functionality to the default download.

then there's routing and things like parameter-modulation (something like side-chaining on steroids), and the fact that i can put it on any box i work on.

bottom line is: after investing the time, i find reaper every bit as capable as samplitude as well as being on par aurally. i still have samp and do intend to try to use it for a portion of this project but, day to day, i now use reaper and am very happy and impressed with it, much more so than the current state of samp. sad to say. been with samp since v2.5.

BabaG

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I started to warm towards Reaper about 3 years ago and it probably is the one host which is easiest to replicate Samplitude features on. Although there are a few key things I missed.

1 - You can't have the piano roll and event editor open at the same time. Also inputting a midi note involves clicking and dragging rather than just a single click.

2 - No global input quantize

3 - No Comparasonics

4 - No spectral cleaning

5- It has a kind of object editor, but it's no rival to Samplitude's one. For a start, it's not even real time.

6 - Actually I find that the fact it IS so customisable makes rather daunting and I really think I would need to dedicate a lot of time to get it running how I wanted it to.

My interest in it has kind of receded since then. I actually prefer Studio One as an alternative DAW. It really does seem to be designed with the musician in mind.

With regard to how Reaper sounds. I can't really comment. Although maybe one day I will load up one of my 70 track projects to see how it fares.

I did a brief test the other day, comparing the sound of Studio One and Samplitude ( a smallish midi project) and I couldn't really hear any difference. Although the big test is to recreate a very dense mix and see how the audio engine holds up. Samplitude sounds great with large mixes. Although it can sometimes get a bit flaky, especially if you're using large Kontakt/Trillian sample libraries as well.

Regards

Kraznet

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Samplitude sounds great with large mixes.

+1

i try presonus studio one and Sawstudio together Samp, i think samplitude sound is best, It is unbelievable Clear/hear all of the details. I never give up Samp Sound Details..

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Ok, taking off my MAGIX name tag, back to Tim, Engineer from Eclectica studios, so if you don't like what I say, email me, MAGIX has nothing to do with my opinions.

I did the test about CPU, but its the same test for listen for the mix engine. All day long I have mastering engineers calling me and praising how much better Samplitude and Sequoia sound to everything else out there. Are you saying they are all wrong? Are you saying my ears are deceiving me? Are you saying that even though the null test showed they are different, and my ears heard one as beautiful and 3d and the other as hard and flat, its all in my head?

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You do realize, Boris, that in the end, you have not offered any proof that any DAW sounds better than other. For the simple reason that there is no objective way to determine what constitutes "better" - is it how close it stays to the original? Or is it how much it transforms the sound? A mix of all factors?

I don't think anyone can determine that - and that's the reason the real experts (the guys actually writing these programs) can't claim sonic superiority for their products.

That's because I didn't intend to proof that this or that is superior or inferior. What is though quite easy to proof is that they sound different, because they take different routes for the tasks they have to perform, that is conceptually, in programming and such. If anyone wants to take the bourden of testing go ahead.

So if you do that carefully, only using repeatable and comparable tasks etc etc you will get to hear discernable differences. And this is where subjectivnes comes into play in different regards: What is the working purpose, what sound do you go for, what routes do you take to achieve that.

I think there is one major false reception of what makes working in the digital domain different compared to analog, like the idea that it is like taking a clean path (a little bit like the misconception when displaying digital sinus in a stepped form, which is simply not what represents a bunch of samples, but a trick to visualize the concept). If an anlog console has to send its current through different stages to let it reach its destination properly, that is where it necessarily is getting processed, which also means getting altered, no matter what. Working the same path in the digital domain is by no means different by its approach, bits must be delivered along a certain path to reach their destination, whereby they necessarily are getting processed, and altered - more or less. And that is in fact achieved in different ways, just like analog consoles are built different and sound different - so do diffrent digital consoles. DAWs are just no exception. Even different CPU architectures could produce different results when you would bit compare the results - but don't try this at home, you would need to setup complete insane amounts of processings to make their different handling of rounding erros result in different bits. But as said to make different programming routines, different use of libraries and such (which occure with every single step of delivering the bits), visible in your results is quite easy, if you want to take the time to do so - I am done with it.

That said DAWs do not sound the same, wether it is by purpose or because someone needs to take a shortcut here and there. The less necessary those shortcuts become, because of increasing processing power on the machines generally in use, the less they differ in this regard. Still there remains different use of libraries, integer or float (anyone for integer still, 'cept Bob Lentini?), programming skills (yes, absolutely!), but all in all it is becoming more and more a matter of taste, which is an absolutely fine thing. And then there is your DA interface (getting better and better), yes, and your AA interface, which is your hearing ability, your fitness and what not.

A good performance, engineering skills will do their own part in levelling out things in comparision for sure.

Know what, I do like tracking drums with a Tascam 234, and if I don't like the cassette sound I just use their input gain and the routing - for the sound. I do master through a Studer console, and if I don't get where I want I stay completely ITB, which has become very pleasent these days.

To end that with a proposal for a short test route to take: Today I got quite a funny expression (see Ry Cooder on his first record) on my face when - because I sometimes forget to do it beforehand - while composing in Live I switched the /O of a sampled Grand from Live's Master to direct /O on the Mytek I used, wow, that blew me, since the Grand was the only track I had left on the Master! Try that with Samplitude, you will not be able to hear any discernable diffrences. That's why I always end in Samplitude, and yes, (some!) of the others can do this too, but I use Samplitude for a lot of other reasons. Trust in the devs is one among many - I tend to believe they still love their sound more than features.

And Tim, sure this is all in your head, since hopefully that is where your ears reside ;-)

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Price is *definitely not* the reason a lot of people prefer Reaper (and no, I'm not a fanboy and I don't think reaper is any better than Samplitude).

Haven't tried it....and frankly I doubt I ever will as I don't see a reason to. I mean, why bother going through new DAW learning curves just to end up where I already am, or possibly worse off. I doubt Reaper would impress me that much more that I would permanently switch from Samplitude. I've seen the Reaper GUI.....meh......it doesn't come close to my Birdline skins.

Now AFA its selling point....all I know is that whenever anyone asks for a cheap DAW, usually because they are your typical home recording newb and without much of a budget....all the other home recording guys who were in that same boat....jump in and say "just get Reaper".

So....maybe there are good things in Reaper, not saying there aren't....just making the observation how and why most people I've seen end up with Reaper....is because it's cheap.

Maybe that's a good thing, as it may be a red flag for other DAW companies, that if they are going to charge high prices, their DAW apps need to be at a MUCH higher quality level than something like Reaper...not just soundwise, but all around.

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Price is *definitely not* the reason a lot of people prefer Reaper (and no, I'm not a fanboy and I don't think reaper is any better than Samplitude).

Haven't tried it....and frankly I doubt I ever will as I don't see a reason to. I mean, why bother going through new DAW learning curves just to end up where I already am, or possibly worse off. I doubt Reaper would impress me that much more that I would permanently switch from Samplitude. I've seen the Reaper GUI.....meh......it doesn't come close to my Birdline skins.

Now AFA its selling point....all I know is that whenever anyone asks for a cheap DAW, usually because they are your typical home recording newb and without much of a budget....all the other home recording guys who were in that same boat....jump in and say "just get Reaper".

So....maybe there are good things in Reaper, not saying there aren't....just making the observation how and why most people I've seen end up with Reaper....is because it's cheap.

Maybe that's a good thing, as it may be a red flag for other DAW companies, that if they are going to charge high prices, their DAW apps need to be at a MUCH higher quality level than something like Reaper...not just soundwise, but all around.

My impression is different: people flock to Reaper because of an unbeatable combination of price and features.

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