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irvin

OT: very impressed with Reaper

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Every single Mac user I know run Logix X, all Windows users I know runs Reaper or Cubase here in Norway. No-one here knows what Samplitude/Sequoia is. Im curous as to how v13 will price itself compared to Cubase, Studio One and Sonar. Reaper and LogicX is so cheap I don't see the reason to compare price with them. I certanly hope the Magix marketing dept. will make an effort to get v13 out there, for real! I feel slightly akward as all my clients tell me they've never heard about the software I use. Im that "wierdo" running Windows 8 and some exotic DAW.. hehe.

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Ok, taking off my MAGIX name tag, back to Tim, Engineer from Eclectica studios, so if you don't like what I say, email me, MAGIX has nothing to do with my opinions.

I did the test about CPU, but its the same test for listen for the mix engine. All day long I have mastering engineers calling me and praising how much better Samplitude and Sequoia sound to everything else out there. Are you saying they are all wrong? Are you saying my ears are deceiving me? Are you saying that even though the null test showed they are different, and my ears heard one as beautiful and 3d and the other as hard and flat, its all in my head?

In all fairness, Tim, I could tell you the opposite, right? Mastering engineers call me all day saying how Samplitude is not any better (or worse) than Reaper or Studio One. Are those people lying? Are their ears deceiving them? This anecdotal evidence at best - thus the need for taking your Magix employee tag off...:-)

That said, I honestly understand your position: I left Reason because I *felt* the sound was shrill. Samplitude sounds much better to me - but I have to admit this is a quasi-religious matter: I have no proof whatsoever that great sound, every bit as good as Samplitude's can't be produced by Reason. It takes a lot of familiarity, knowledge, time and tweaking to get the most out of any DAW. It may very well be that the nicer interface (skin) in Samplitude puts you in a better mood to do your work. It might be that you are just a very good engineer and you would get praise from your mastering engineers no matter what DAW you used. It may be that you just don't know enough about Reaper or other programs to be able to configure them or extract the most from them. It may be that your ears do fool you - it happens. It may be that I have come to a great version of Reaper (4.72) and I did not experience what you experienced some time ago. The possibilities are infinite.

Whatever the case, the bottom line is that we can't really determine who sounds better amongst the mainstream DAW's: the internet is full of people telling the world how ProTools sounds like crap - and yet, more hits have been produced with ProTools than all other DAW's combined. To me (and this is a very personal opinion), all contemporary DAW's sound great and have great features. It's just a matter of finding which one fits your taste better...

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Price is *definitely not* the reason a lot of people prefer Reaper (and no, I'm not a fanboy and I don't think reaper is any better than Samplitude).

Haven't tried it....and frankly I doubt I ever will as I don't see a reason to. I mean, why bother going through new DAW learning curves just to end up where I already am, or possibly worse off. I doubt Reaper would impress me that much more that I would permanently switch from Samplitude. I've seen the Reaper GUI.....meh......it doesn't come close to my Birdline skins.

Now AFA its selling point....all I know is that whenever anyone asks for a cheap DAW, usually because they are your typical home recording newb and without much of a budget....all the other home recording guys who were in that same boat....jump in and say "just get Reaper".

So....maybe there are good things in Reaper, not saying there aren't....just making the observation how and why most people I've seen end up with Reaper....is because it's cheap.

Maybe that's a good thing, as it may be a red flag for other DAW companies, that if they are going to charge high prices, their DAW apps need to be at a MUCH higher quality level than something like Reaper...not just soundwise, but all around.

You stated in a previous post:

"Reaper is THE "home rec" DAW app these days......mainly 'cuz it's very cheap.

Those folks will never accept that it sounds bad..... wink.png"

If you have not even tried it, it does not make much sense to assume price is the only reason people use Reaper far more extensively than Samplitude. It does not make sense for you to claim it "sounds bad". Not a fair assumption at all...lol...

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I'm not making assumptions when people specifically lean toward Reaper because it's cheap.

I mean....when someone asks- What's a "cheap" DAW app?...and they're told to get Reaper, and they do....it's no assumption about what their motivaiton was. ;)

AFA it sounding "bad".....I never actually said that.

I said that I never used it.

I was joking about the type of negative forum reponse one would most likely get from the large home reocrding crowd who uses Reaper, if anyone told them it sounded bad. :D

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I'm not making assumptions when people specifically lean toward Reaper because it's cheap.

I mean....when someone asks- What's a "cheap" DAW app?...and they're told to get Reaper, and they do....it's no assumption about what their motivaiton was. ;)

AFA it sounding "bad".....I never actually said that.

I said that I never used it.

I was joking about the type of negative forum reponse one would most likely get from the large home reocrding crowd who uses Reaper, if anyone told them it sounded bad. :D

More assumptions. there is zero evidence that things happen the way you present them. Most likely people ask: "what's a good *and* cheap DAW app?" And then, they get several answers: Logic, Reaper, audacity, etc.

When they try them (or prod the experts for more information), they discover that Reaper is very good and stick with it. Once again, if price were the main concern, they would get the zero-dollar version of Samplitude freely available in every corner of the internet.

And you did say Reaper sounds bad...but it's my time to assume: you probably meant something different and your post came across in an unintended manner. I can accept that. All's good.

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Well now....you're making a lot of assumptions about what people say and mean! :D

I don't deny that there are Reaper users who use it because they like it.

My only point was that these days, Reaper is very often the first thing mentioned when people specifically ask for a cheap DAW app.

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i think everybody's right about why people take up reaper. lets face it, at that price, why wouldn't people try it? and, if you stick with it, it's astonishing the depth of function it brings. as has been pointed out both directly and indirectly, people use multiple applications today. one picks up the tool that is right for the job. at reaper's price point, it seems almost crazy not to try it, especially with an unlimited use trail.

to kraznet's points made earlier, the object editor was the reason i stuck with samplitude and didn't migrate to reaper. i got used to working exclusively at the object level. as i watched reaper progress, i found it possible to pretty much replicate object level work. that was the point at which i began seriously using reaper. there are definite differences in process but they are similar enough that i consider them trivial now.

i'm not a midi person so i can't speak to kraz' points regarding that. the lack of spectral editing is not insignificant. i still have samp, though, and use it for that. it should be pointed out, though, that there are spectral options available. stillwell is a contributor to the reaper community and has a plug called spectro. i've yet to pick it up but i do plan to.

kraz' last point is about the potential time suck of the availability/necessity of customization. that's a valid point. it's why i took things very slowly and deliberately. at any step one can always abandon reaper if you approach it that way. thing for me was, it just kept getting better and better. it really does remind me of the early days of samp. i still think about the huge leaps that samp made between 2.5 and 4 (3 was skipped. i wonder if lucky 13 will also be skipped) and then 4.5. reaper feels like that to me.

BabaG

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So.... apart from pure curiosity, and just wanting to find out what Reaper is like.....if you already use Samplitude, and even if you say you can mimic a lot of the stuff from Samplitude in Reaper...(why) would you prefer to use Reaper over Samplitude?

Is there any point/benefit going with Reaper if you have both?

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Is there any point/benefit going with Reaper if you have both?

The only benefit is that you may have customers that can relate to it because they have heard of it, so you're not an "outsider" any more. Some may even be impressed by the simple fact that you have 2 DAWs. Or even 3. Wow...

It's a bit like having a 32 channel Behringer mixer in the studio and a bunch of customers that have no idea what this actually is, they only see a bunch of knobs and are wildly impressed. Beside the Behringer you have an 4 channel Millenia preamp and they won't even see it, they'll book your studio because of the massive and impressive Behringer desk.

So they have heard of Reaper, Logic, Cubase or whatever, and because everyone has it it must be good. Psychological warfare, and at the end of the day really unimportant, as long as the weakest link in your recording chain really happens to be a Behringer or similar preamp, or one that doesn't fit the need.

Just two cents about the soundquality of DAWs:

One of the big problems with tests like that is, that you cannot make an objective test as long as you are your own test subject and as long as you have certain hopes or expectations regarding the results. The chance that the psychological aspect influences your impressions is just too high, which is also one reason why a lot of people simply will not believe your test results.

Personally I'm absolutely convinced that there are differences, but I will not start a discussion about it, especially not with a homerecording-MP3-generation, because it's as useless as the discussion about the "impressive" Behringer desk.

Regards

Matthias

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So.... apart from pure curiosity, and just wanting to find out what Reaper is like.....if you already use Samplitude, and even if you say you can mimic a lot of the stuff from Samplitude in Reaper...(why) would you prefer to use Reaper over Samplitude?

Is there any point/benefit going with Reaper if you have both?

In my case, one of the reasons for exploring options beyond Samplitude is the need for 'snap audio' - a very elegant feature in Reason and other applications. It's nice to just grab a transient and snap it to the grid in seconds.

But then again, all apps have their little quirks and limitations: believe it or not, Reason eliminated "replace" mode when recording midi at version 5 or 6!

When I first installed Reaper I was not very impressed but the "themes" possibility made me curious enough to explore a little bit and now I think it is a very solid DAW, on a par with Samplitude and others. It takes a good 2 or 3 hours of tweaking (nothing terribly complicated) to get it to ''behave". If you are ever curious, try installing a couple of the themes (Rado v4 and Protools are my suggestions) and give it a try. BTW, installing themes is quite simple: download the theme, open Reaper and drag the file into an open Window. The app will immediately switch to the new theme.

All in all, a very good DAW - with capabilities well beyond what its price would suggest.

On a personal level: I'm a programmer who adopted Adobe Coldfusion many years ago as the preferred language for building web-based applications. It was a beautiful and very simple platform. Then I saw PHP emerge and grow from a "cheap" alternative that a lot of young people liked only because it was open source ("free"). A decade or so later, Coldfusion is still being developed, far from its glory Allaire/macromedia days, but very few people use it or even know about it, while PHP is the de facto standard for web scripting languages. Nowadays, a lot of Coldfusion developers fear the language will just die out for lack of new users and I see a very curious parallel with Samplitude: it's nice and very good, but I wonder whether it will keep pace with younger and fresher alternatives, like Reaper. It's a legitimate concern.

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In my case, one of the reasons for exploring options beyond Samplitude is the need for 'snap audio' - a very elegant feature in Reason and other applications. It's nice to just grab a transient and snap it to the grid in seconds.

This is one of the features that Samplitude is lagging behind the competition with. I think all the major DAW have some kind of audio snap and most of them have had this kind of feature for quite a few years. I ended up going outside Samplitude and using Studio One in order to smooth the tempo of some multitracked sessions which weren't recorded to click. I did attempt to find out how to do it in Reaper, but I couldn't fathom it out.

One thing I have noticed when using Reaper is that the menus can get a bit sluggish very quickly. I was doing some tests with SampleTank 3 last night and as soon as I opened the mixer all the menus became sluggish and slow to refresh. I tried various preference settings. But it made no difference. Also, the play cursor seemed to be fading in and out during playback, especially at higher zoom levels. The menu problem was also present on my last computer.

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Audio snap in Reaper is a two step process:

1. Right-click on any object (called "item" in Reaper) and select "Item Processing..." / "Dinamic split markers"

2. On the following screen, you select the action to perform from the drop-down menu. In your case, it would be "Replace Stretch Markers in selected items"

3. Hit "Split" and you will get transient markers that you can then manipulate as needed.

BASIC TWEAKING: after step 1 above, you will see little lines appear over your "item" (object in Samplitude). At this point you can play around with the "sensitivity" by clicking on the "Set Transient Sensitivity" button (bottom left of dialog window). When you are happy with the settings, hit "Split".

Please, let me know how it works for you. I find it very simple and elegant and use it extensively for minor corrections to timing problems, specially percussion takes.

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So.... apart from pure curiosity, and just wanting to find out what Reaper is like.....if you already use Samplitude, and even if you say you can mimic a lot of the stuff from Samplitude in Reaper...(why) would you prefer to use Reaper over Samplitude?

Is there any point/benefit going with Reaper if you have both?

i dual boot osx and w7 on a mac pro, doing video editing on the mac side and audio on the w7 side. or, at least, i did. with prox i've gotten a lot of blue screens. very annoying. one reason i wanted to look at reaper.

with reaper i can keep an install on both sides, mac and w7. i can access, using mac drive, a common project from either os. i can also put reaper on any other boxes or laptops i work on. or even a thumb drive for that matter. also no blue screens. that's been huge.

another bothersome thing is the samp dongle. 'we don't trust you, even though you bought the product and have been upgrading for years. you have to use a dongle.' users say,'we hate the dongle.' 'ok, now you don't need a dongle.' no such policy issues with reaper.

also, samp's video, while it was always troublesome, now completely sucks. again, no such problem with reaper.

BabaG

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. i can also put reaper on any other boxes or laptops i work on. or even a thumb drive for that matter. also no blue screens. that's been huge.

I run Samp ProxSuite w. serial (no dongle) on my SurfacePro2 tablet with no problems - I bring it everywhere for songwriting & pre-production with artists I work with.

Recently had a few longer planetrips to "writing locations" further south, and edited takes and produced roughmixes by landing in what is normally "waste of time-environment"

- Great being able to do so! Right in my main program.. :-) - Never had a chrash or bluescreen with that setup.

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

Null tests are great if you want to compare pure file import/export from one DAW and another.

The point that was being made earlier is that once you start actually working with a given DAW on a project....adding plugs, moving faders, editing, mixing etc...it's not always an apples to apples thing....and at that point it's hard to do a straight null test comparison between two DAWs....and so it's left to our ears to choose.

Like....who uses DAWs just to do file import/export tasks....?

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I don't care too much for mathematical null tests, I think there's more to it. The only interesting thing I would go for at this stage of the discussion is a totally objective listening test. We just had a talk about it last night on how one could set up this test. First of all, it can't be done alone. The first thing that would have to be ruled out is any sort of expectation or prejudice regarding the comparison of DAWs. That would mean that you need test subjects that actually don't know what the test is all about. The test would have to be blind, behind a curtain, the only question to be answered is "what sounds better?". The people should not even know if there are DAWs tested or speakers or interfaces or whatever, not even if the main subject is studio or consumer or car hifi for that matter - just no information at all, only the answer to this one question, without any further discussion. Of course you need test subjects that have good ears and can really give a useful opinion. To get a result that is objective as possible you need a larger number of participants, the larger the number the more objective you could call the results.

As I said before, personally I'm convinced that there is a difference, but I would find this test very interesting nonetheless. So everyone: any idea when and where we all could meet, with at least 50 people, listening to some music, without knowing what it's all about? Let me know, I'll be there.

See ya there...

Matthias

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Nevermind sound comparisons, the sluggish menu's are a show stopper for me as far as Reaper goes. Compare it to Samplitude :

Regards

Kraznet

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I'm in complete agreement that the null test is only valid for simple I/O comparisons, and that any ITB activity (mixing, EQ, plugins, rendering, etc.) is likely to sound "different" from DAW to DAW.

But I'm not a fan of "listening tests." Years ago a friend of mine who worked for a very well known and well respected speaker company was doing an A-B test of two pairs of speakers when I stopped by. He asked my opinion. I said, "What's wrong with your phono cartridge?" There was a distinct mechanical "rattle" coming from his expensive Grado cartridge on his high-end Thorens turntable. He was so focused on the nuanced differences between the speakers that he hadn't even noticed until I pointed it out!

I think the only way to evaluate the differences in DAWs is to listen for problems. If you hear a specific artifact such as, clipping, graininess, phase distortion, metallic sound, etc. then there's a problem. If not, I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes a glass of wine tastes terrific because everything else about the evening is just right. Another time the same bottle isn't so great.

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Nevermind sound comparisons, the sluggish menu's are a show stopper for me as far as Reaper goes. Compare it to Samplitude :

Regards

Kraznet

Looks like a configuration problem - i don't get that behavior. Win 7 Pro.

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I've just done a complete re-install of Reaper and it still is the same. It used to happen on my older computer as well. Configuration is default from install.

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I looked at Reaper last year - just mostly out of curiosity. Actually I had looked at it some years ago but I forgot everything about it. I spent a little more time investigating this second pass. I get it. I get what it is. It's a DAW program. It's a good bang for the buck type program considering the price (<$100). Almost comically small download file. At first I thought I had maybe missed something when I saw the file size. With a lot of internet downloads you get nothing but a small install program first. That's what I thought I had. Nope. That's the whole enchilada. The framework for a nice DAW is there but the stuff that's bundled in is almost a joke. I mean... maybe the plug-ins are on-par with more expensive stuff but it all looked like late 90's design. Very flat graphics. Almost text-based design. I'm sure that means it's snappier though. I'm so used to the "realistic" designs of today's VSTs I don't think I could like working with that very much. But since we all probably have the better stuff already most people wouldn't even bother with that I guess. If you were coming at this brand new (your first DAW) you'd end up spending the same amount as Samplitude to get all the better VST's. So maybe it's a wash either way. As far as the functionality - my needs are fairly simple. I saw nothing there that was compelling me to jump ship from Samplitude. I don't need two DAW's for any reason at all. So I looked and then walked away from it. But since then I've recommended it to some of my younger clients who ask about what they should buy for their own use. You know... the ones with no money to spend lol.

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I've just done a complete re-install of Reaper and it still is the same. It used to happen on my older computer as well. Configuration is default from install.

Any chance one of these Windows tweaks could help?

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/1884-mouse-hover-time-change.html

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/731-menu-show-delay-time.html

Regards,

Walt

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Hi Walt,

Thanks for that. I was aware of the menu delay tweak and I thought I had done it but it was infact set to the default 400. So I changed it to 50 and it seems to have fixed the problem :) Although it's odd that Samp was having a problem even at 400. Maybe Reaper is a bit more sensitive in that respect.

Cheers

Kraznet

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