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irvin

OT: very impressed with Reaper

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

Really? I don't even know why I am on this forum anymore. this thread should be on gear slutz any way not taking up room on the Samplitude forum.

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

Really? I don't even know why I am on this forum anymore. this thread should be on gear slutz any way not taking up room on the Samplitude forum.

Why are you so dismissive of Gearslutz? There is a lot of very knowledgeable, respectable and professional posters there. including our generous Kraznet, a man who has done more for Samplitude and its users than anyone on this forum.

Although not a member (don't have the time to post everywhere!), I often read Gearlutz (and other places) for information - with a full understanding that some of it will be wrong, some will be valuable and some will be downright great.

And to be honest, the poster you so easily dismiss has a valid point. There is no objective, unbiased way of determining what DAW sounds best (or even better). You can't even determine what "sounds better" really means. Is blue a better color than yellow? When it comes to a DAW, is the best one the one that keeps the sound closest to the original or the one that colors and affects it the most and in which way?

You don't realize it, but you are arguing your point in pretty much the same way that your despised fellow Gearslutz posters do. They are not very different from us, after all...lol...

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

Really? I don't even know why I am on this forum anymore. this thread should be on gear slutz any way not taking up room on the Samplitude forum.

Why are you so dismissive of Gearslutz? There is a lot of very knowledgeable, respectable and professional posters there. including our generous Kraznet, a man who has done more for Samplitude and its users than anyone on this forum.

Although not a member (don't have the time to post everywhere!), I often read Gearlutz (and other places) for information - with a full understanding that some of it will be wrong, some will be valuable and some will be downright great.

And to be honest, the poster you so easily dismiss has a valid point. There is no objective, unbiased way of determining what DAW sounds best (or even better). You can't even determine what "sounds better" really means. Is blue a better color than yellow? When it comes to a DAW, is the best one the one that keeps the sound closest to the original or the one that colors and affects it the most and in which way?

You don't realize it, but you are arguing your point in pretty much the same way that your despised fellow Gearslutz posters do. They are not very different from us, after all...lol...

Thanks Irvin.

Personally I´m not too keen on the way Tim brings certain things across either. I respect him as a valuable member of this forum like everyone else. But I find his more and more upcoming practice of promoting one thing by putting another thing down quite questionable. Especially for a company representative this does not make for any good impression. The more than obvious disrespect for other musicians and technicians is also sad sideeffect.

Regards

Matthias

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

Really? I don't even know why I am on this forum anymore. this thread should be on gear slutz any way not taking up room on the Samplitude forum.

...to be honest, the poster you so easily dismiss has a valid point. There is no objective, unbiased way of determining what DAW sounds best (or even better). You can't even determine what "sounds better" really means. Is blue a better color than yellow? When it comes to a DAW, is the best one the one that keeps the sound closest to the original or the one that colors and affects it the most and in which way?

You don't realize it, but you are arguing your point in pretty much the same way that your despised fellow Gearslutz posters do. They are not very different from us, after all...lol...

Mmmmm....not looking to go off on some tanget...but reading samscasa's post again...he's saying there IS a way to determine things, and not how you're reading it above (see highlight in your post). He is saying that null tests DO determine if all DAWs are identical, and therfore no one better than another.

Which isn't really true.

I read Tim's comment as purely disagreeing with that (like myself and others have done)....and the ref to GS is that the "null test" topic has been done to death over there, but the reality is....a null test only proves two DAWs import/export identically. It proves nothing for how one DAW performs all the normal, daily tasks that we do with DAWs, which certainly can affect/change the final sound in many, many ways, and at that point, since you can't just do a simple null test once two DAWs have applied all kinds of other processes besides pure import/export...the only thing left IS to use your ears.

Not sure why that's so frowned upon, and it always comes back to "null tests"?

Everything we do with audio involves using our ears to make decisions, millions of decisions from start to finish of every project....but now when it comes to comparing sound quality from two DAWs....that shouldn't be done with our ears??? wink.png

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I welcome new dialog and expression around here this entire forum is about as interesting as watching paint dry

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Tim, I remember earlier you wrote there was a new Product Manager for Samplitude/Sequoia with some new exiting strategies, wanna elaborate on that?

I dont plan on switching to Reaper anytime soon btw, nulling or not, Sam workflow is superfast over here...

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

Really? I don't even know why I am on this forum anymore. this thread should be on gear slutz any way not taking up room on the Samplitude forum.

...to be honest, the poster you so easily dismiss has a valid point. There is no objective, unbiased way of determining what DAW sounds best (or even better). You can't even determine what "sounds better" really means. Is blue a better color than yellow? When it comes to a DAW, is the best one the one that keeps the sound closest to the original or the one that colors and affects it the most and in which way?

You don't realize it, but you are arguing your point in pretty much the same way that your despised fellow Gearslutz posters do. They are not very different from us, after all...lol...

Mmmmm....not looking to go off on some tanget...but reading samscasa's post again...he's saying there IS a way to determine things, and not how you're reading it above (see highlight in your post). He is saying that null tests DO determine if all DAWs are identical, and therfore no one better than another.

Which isn't really true.

I read Tim's comment as purely disagreeing with that (like myself and others have done)....and the ref to GS is that the "null test" topic has been done to death over there, but the reality is....a null test only proves two DAWs import/export identically. It proves nothing for how one DAW performs all the normal, daily tasks that we do with DAWs, which certainly can affect/change the final sound in many, many ways, and at that point, since you can't just do a simple null test once two DAWs have applied all kinds of other processes besides pure import/export...the only thing left IS to use your ears.

Not sure why that's so frowned upon, and it always comes back to "null tests"?

Everything we do with audio involves using our ears to make decisions, millions of decisions from start to finish of every project....but now when it comes to comparing sound quality from two DAWs....that shouldn't be done with our ears??? ;)

The funny thing is I agree with those like tim, who feel that some DAWs sound better than others. I left Reason because somehow I found the sound shrill - but I can't honestly say I have proof.

I also believe that a nice, polished interface goes a looooong way in determining our satisfaction with the DAWs sound! Yes, I'll be the first one to admit it's purely psychological thing and quite irrational, but that's how I feel. And I suspect that's how most humans work. In the case of Reaper, I was encouraged to give it a serious try only after installing the Rado 4 and the ProTools skins; after that, it felt like a truly professional, sophisticated DAW and not the kind-of-amateurish application I did not like so much at the beginning.

So, my point is that Tim has every right in feeling the way feels, but he has a moral obligation (in the name of intellectual integrity) to acknowledge that both sides of the "which DAW sounds better?" argument have valid points, while no side has definitive proof of anything. The way he just puts down people and products that don't agree with his taste (yes, we are talking about taste, not science...lol) is not fair or even necessary.

Let's just enjoy a nice debate in a good manner, because it's guaranteed we won't know the truth no matter what we do or say. That's the magic of music!

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Since Reaper and Samplitude null, when a proper null test is done, I would say anyone hearing a difference is falling prey to the mystery of our hearing.

It is an old topic beaten to death on many forums. Unless you do not believe in the science of a null test...then there is a complete new discussion to have.

Really? I don't even know why I am on this forum anymore. this thread should be on gear slutz any way not taking up room on the Samplitude forum.

The sort of ignorance you are displaying would be a valid reason to leave.

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Mmmmm....not looking to go off on some tanget...but reading samscasa's post again...he's saying there IS a way to determine things, and not how you're reading it above (see highlight in your post). He is saying that null tests DO determine if all DAWs are identical, and therfore no one better than another.

Which isn't really true.

)

I don't mean one is not better than another. The one you like is the best. I'm saying they all handle raw data the same. After plug ins and moving faders all bets are off. I just don't think responsible people should dismiss any DAW with the quick and subjective, " it doesn't sound good." I own Reaper but do not use it, it doesn't appeal to me, workflow, GUI, how it handles routing. But I visit the site and fortunately I've never heard Justin slam other DAWs as so many will do his. I like that he takes the high road, everyone should, right?

I have a brother at Bell Labs. The stories of their studies of the ear and how untrustworthy it can be are comical, very entertaining and a bit disconcerting. How many here have adjusted an EQ and were unhappy with the sound just to realize it was bypassed. ;) I have...and it is a testament to the stories of how easily our ears are fooled?

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When I did a sound shoot out a year ago with reaper, it sounded bad. Don't waste your time...

Try saying that on Gearslutz and you will get a 100 page thread lol smile.png

Try saying that on your typical "home rec" audio forum....and you will get a 1000 page thread!!! biggrin.png

Reaper is THE "home rec" DAW app these days......mainly 'cuz it's very cheap.

Those folks will never accept that it sounds bad..... wink.png

please dont say that on KvR...ph34r.png

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I welcome new dialog and expression around here this entire forum is about as interesting as watching paint dry

tongue.png

Ain't that the truth!

What's funnier, is when there is the occasional and somewhat off-topic thread like this one....and then someone comes in and complains that it needs to be taken elsewhere and that we should keep this forum on-topic...only trouble is, you could die of malnutrition waiting for posts around here some days.

Besides, I think any topic that relates to audio, is ON topic.

There are many other things that touch Samplitude/Sequoia...we can't just talk about the two apps in some vacuum. wink.png

I don't mean one is not better than another. The one you like is the best. I'm saying they all handle raw data the same. After plug ins and moving faders all bets are off. I just don't think responsible people should dismiss any DAW with the quick and subjective, " it doesn't sound good."

I don't think anyone is giving a quick and subjective "it doesn't sound good". Seems to me people actually take the time to audition and compare. Trouble is EVERY TIME someone says they think DAW A sounds better then DAW B....out comes the "null test" argument (and that's what Tim was really getting it, IMO).

A null test is IMO useless in determining audio quality between DAWs.

There is NO test that can do that. Only you and your ears can do that, over a period of time.

If enough people say the same thing about a particular DAW....mmmmm.....you can call it all "subjective coincidence", but I would say that maybe they're onto something. happy.png

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I believe Samplitude is over priced in the current market and that major upgrades, whether they be features or fixes, are lagging well behind.

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One thing I have to praise Reaper for is CPU efficiency, especially in the area of VSTi's although this test was done solely using SampleTank 3.

I've been doing some tests with SampleTank 3 as I was planning on making a tutorial about multi-outs. I loaded SampleTank 3 in Samplitude and created a 16 instrument multi which basically meant I grabbed a bunch of instruments and inserted them in the SampleTank instrument slots so there were 16 in total. Then I set it up for multi-outs in Samplitude and started trying to record to MIDI tracks. I was getting some labs and it all sounded a bit stuttery. Then I checked the CPU meter and it was hitting around 70%. Even just sitting there idle Samplitude was using around 50 to 60% CPU.

So I loaded it up in Reaper and created multi-outs and recorded 16 midi tracks and to my amazement, playing back these 16 midi tracks used around 6 to 7% CPU. I did a test in Studio One as well and that was eating up a similar amount of CPU to Samplitude as was FL Studio. A guy on the KVR forum confirmed that he was having similar problems in Cubase 7.5, Bitwig and Tracktion. So Samplitude was not alone with having this problem.

I did some more checks and the 16 SampleTank instruments also had a total of 58 ST3 native FX spread over the various instruments. So I removed all the FX and CPU usage dropped dramatically to 2%. So it was obviously these 58 effects which were draining the CPU. Anyway, it seems to me that Reaper is somehow creating some voodoo which is optimising CPU usage with the 58 FX added to the point where it's considerably more efficient than 6 other hosts tested. I'm mystified how they manage to do this, but there must be some clever programming going on in the background.

I will have to do some more tests using Kontakt 5 and load up a bunch of native K5 FX and see what happens. To check this isn't just an isolated case.

Regards

Kraznet

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Hey Kraznet.

My CPU tests with Reaper were not as comprehensive as yours, but yielded similar results when pack to the rafters with audio files & dozens of FX.

Cheers,

Bob.

One thing I have to praise Reaper for is CPU efficiency, especially in the area of VSTi's although this test was done solely using SampleTank 3.

I've been doing some tests with SampleTank 3 as I was planning on making a tutorial about multi-outs. I loaded SampleTank 3 in Samplitude and created a 16 instrument multi which basically meant I grabbed a bunch of instruments and inserted them in the SampleTank instrument slots so there were 16 in total. Then I set it up for multi-outs in Samplitude and started trying to record to MIDI tracks. I was getting some labs and it all sounded a bit stuttery. Then I checked the CPU meter and it was hitting around 70%. Even just sitting there idle Samplitude was using around 50 to 60% CPU.

So I loaded it up in Reaper and created multi-outs and recorded 16 midi tracks and to my amazement, playing back these 16 midi tracks used around 6 to 7% CPU. I did a test in Studio One as well and that was eating up a similar amount of CPU to Samplitude as was FL Studio. A guy on the KVR forum confirmed that he was having similar problems in Cubase 7.5, Bitwig and Tracktion. So Samplitude was not alone with having this problem.

I did some more checks and the 16 SampleTank instruments also had a total of 58 ST3 native FX spread over the various instruments. So I removed all the FX and CPU usage dropped dramatically to 2%. So it was obviously these 58 effects which were draining the CPU. Anyway, it seems to me that Reaper is somehow creating some voodoo which is optimising CPU usage with the 58 FX added to the point where it's considerably more efficient than 6 other hosts tested. I'm mystified how they manage to do this, but there must be some clever programming going on in the background.

I will have to do some more tests using Kontakt 5 and load up a bunch of native K5 FX and see what happens. To check this isn't just an isolated case.

Regards

Kraznet

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Reaper is very efficient, and the secret might be the lack of bloatware. The application will easily run off a thumb drive! (what they call a 'portable Reaper' - haven't tried it). That's the ideal DAW architecture: provide the basic functionality and let users add additional features as needed.

Themes are 1or 2 MB only and will drastically alter the user perception - it can be a very sophisticated-looking Reaper when using the 'right dress'. To me, that dress is Rado 4 - http://www.radorec.com/-themes/16-reaper-4-theme. Like it more than Samplitude's default colors, but it might just be the novelty factor. Time will tell.

And while we are OT, let me mention another little gem: there is this auto-volume VST plugin called AutoGain Pro by Hornet Plugins that works incredibly well for creating and writing volume automation curves like Vocal Rider by Waves. A really nifty utility for those situations when compression or limiting would not do the job (often because of drastic volume changes).

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And while we are OT, let me mention another little gem: there is this auto-volume VST plugin called AutoGain Pro by Hornet Plugins that works incredibly well for creating and writing volume automation curves like Vocal Rider by Waves. A really nifty utility for those situations when compression or limiting would not do the job (often because of drastic volume changes).

Thanks :-)

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Nevermind sound comparisons, the sluggish menu's are a show stopper for me as far as Reaper goes. Compare it to Samplitude :

Regards

Kraznet

That's weird.

I haven't ever seen that behaviour. I am primarily using reaper on osx though.

Reaper has become the daw of choice in the live sound world as a multitracker as far as non avid consoles are concerned.

Cheers

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Nevermind sound comparisons, the sluggish menu's are a show stopper for me as far as Reaper goes. Compare it to Samplitude :

Regards

Kraznet

That's weird.

I haven't ever seen that behaviour. I am primarily using reaper on osx though.

Reaper has become the daw of choice in the live sound world as a multitracker as far as non avid consoles are concerned.

Cheers

In case you missed my later post. I did manage to sort the problem out. Thanks to Walt. It involved doing an edit in the registry and changing the show menu time from 400 to 50. The menus are now appearing like they should. Although it's odd that Samplitude wasn't affected by the fact it was set to 400 by default.

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This is exactly the sort of thread that should be on GS and not on the samplitude help forum. there are plenty of people who love this sort of thread on GS.

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Maybe more Gearslutz-compatible threads would bring much-needed life to this forum. While the noise level of Gearslutz is pretty high, some very valuable info can be gleaned with careful reading.

I confess to often reading the site when seeking information on certain topics - the wide variety of opinions often gives me enough information to form an initial idea. A lot of very knowledgeable people (plugin developers, mostly) frequently participate in conversations - I wish some Magix developers would occasionally contribute to their own forum!

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In case you missed my later post. I did manage to sort the problem out. Thanks to Walt. It involved doing an edit in the registry and changing the show menu time from 400 to 50. The menus are now appearing like they should. Although it's odd that Samplitude wasn't affected by the fact it was set to 400 by default.

What I was thinking is that Samplitude might be ignoring those registry entries while Reaper acknowledges them. If that's the case it could indicate that the Reaper coders are adhering more closely to Windows GUI standards (or maybe the Samp devs just wanted to avoid any menu delay.)

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One thing I have to praise Reaper for is CPU efficiency, especially in the area of VSTi's although this test was done solely using SampleTank 3.

I've been doing some tests with SampleTank 3 as I was planning on making a tutorial about multi-outs. I loaded SampleTank 3 in Samplitude and created a 16 instrument multi which basically meant I grabbed a bunch of instruments and inserted them in the SampleTank instrument slots so there were 16 in total. Then I set it up for multi-outs in Samplitude and started trying to record to MIDI tracks. I was getting some labs and it all sounded a bit stuttery. Then I checked the CPU meter and it was hitting around 70%. Even just sitting there idle Samplitude was using around 50 to 60% CPU.

So I loaded it up in Reaper and created multi-outs and recorded 16 midi tracks and to my amazement, playing back these 16 midi tracks used around 6 to 7% CPU. I did a test in Studio One as well and that was eating up a similar amount of CPU to Samplitude as was FL Studio. A guy on the KVR forum confirmed that he was having similar problems in Cubase 7.5, Bitwig and Tracktion. So Samplitude was not alone with having this problem.

I did some more checks and the 16 SampleTank instruments also had a total of 58 ST3 native FX spread over the various instruments. So I removed all the FX and CPU usage dropped dramatically to 2%. So it was obviously these 58 effects which were draining the CPU. Anyway, it seems to me that Reaper is somehow creating some voodoo which is optimising CPU usage with the 58 FX added to the point where it's considerably more efficient than 6 other hosts tested. I'm mystified how they manage to do this, but there must be some clever programming going on in the background.

I will have to do some more tests using Kontakt 5 and load up a bunch of native K5 FX and see what happens. To check this isn't just an isolated case.

Regards

Kraznet

I am having the CPU usage problem with Samplitude too. Not extensive as Kraznet mentioned, but I used 3 different VSTi; a drum track on Superior drummer; one Piano track using Kontakt and 5 (3 to 4 synth and a Bass) on Independence. There are about 20 audio tracks. When I load the project and check the Ram usage, this project uses about 4.5 G, the CPU usage is around 25-30 when it's not playing and goes up to +60% when played, plus LAB and crackly noise.

It's kind of discouraging and I don't wanna keep freeze/unfreeze on every single track when there's simply one single note I'd like to add on it!

I hope the very efficient "Samplitude" will be back on Pro X2!!!

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Speaking of Reaper efficiency.......... how did Samp go from being amongst the most efficient (maybe the most, apart from Saw) DAW's (from v2 up until maybe 8 or so) to, well, not amongst the most efficient?

Cheers,

Bob.

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Tripel J (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) here in Oz has been using Reaper for tracking - http://www.audiotechnology.com.au/wp/index.php/live-to-dare/

I started using it on a PC for a particular feature - ducking - for radio voiceovers and then put it on the Mac laptop for tracking also. Simple, straightforward and does the job. Never mixed music with it though.

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